Washington Post and Hinduphobia

Apr 20 2004  | Views 24693 |  Comments  (153)
In our world of constant change, many entrenched paradigms and worldviews are being challenged by marginalized voices. As a patriotic American, I consider these healthy debates as another stage in the series of progressive movements, like civil rights, feminism, gay rights and other movements that started as underdogs and outsiders to the established power structure and had to battle at great expense for... Expand

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  hebbs posted 4 yrs ago

vedita,

welcome to the club.

It has been the standard tactic of this bunch. Any issue is countered with another one , 'why not takcle this' kind .

In one of the earlier RISA articles of Rajiv, He tried to answer this several times.-- that every one should pickup their own battle, that interests them and so on. Alas, if Only I had the key to these brains...!



  Vedita Naik posted 4 yrs ago

to Manjiri -why should Rajivji fight every battle
that *you* think should be fought ?? You sound
like one of the many armchair critics of Gandhiji.
They always come up with questions such as 'why
did Gandhiji not fight against *that* ?' where 'that' is
their pet cause. Fighting caste injustice in India is
one struggle and fighting the dominant Western
power asymmetry is another. These are separate
items. You are hijacking a discussion here without
true understanding of dalit issues or the issues
Rajivji is talking about.

- Vedita



  ManjariV posted 4 yrs ago

Vishal States:
The pertinent question here is - if Sanu's and RM's take on the issue is male chauvinist-upper caste Hindu nationalist, then what would be a 'feminist', 'Dalit' take on the books of Doniger and Courtright? This is a question which Rupa will not answer.
I would like to ask what is so specifically male- uppercaste Hindu or Nationalist in Sanu's RM's or even my objections? Can't these all be considered in their own right?

Vishal,
I can't speak for Rupa, but let me talk for myself. RM and SS have constantly been holding on to their mega defence: power asymmetry.
They state, that, they are powerless when faced with superior powers of dominance. But, I see a power asymmetry everywhere. It is something, that CANNOT be wishfully wiped out. Let me elaborate.

In the Hindu Context, there are certain Gods which are worshipped by dalits or low castes. These Gods are not considered real Gods, and are infact, considered the evil versions of good gods. There, you have stereotyping and reductionism right within the gods. That is what Kancha Illiah illustrtaes, in his essays, that dalit gods were never acknowledged as worthy, by upper castes, who decided which god was superior or inferior.

Let us a take a human example, myself for instance. I cannot enter Miss India race, even if I tried, unless of course, Miss India pageants radically change their paradigms of beauty. But, a Miss India can be good at what I am: managing research and researchers. Now, I cannot go and blame the pageant, for their views about beauty, but I can criticize an individual based on their research capabilties, inspite of her being a Miss India. So, you see, power asymmetry is inherent in every system.

What I find wrong with the strategy employed by RM and SS is that, they use western paradigms to define eastern ones. Simply doesn't work mate! Paul Courtright and Wendy Doniger (as gross it might seem, to pious hindus), have used their paradigms, to reach certain conclusions. They have inherently built higher power, to reach these conclusions without fear. If RM and SS need to get power symmetry, they should fight this misrepresentation at their home turf, which is India. It cannot be US, until we have a major Indian political representation.

There are millions of Hindus (whether upper caste origin or otherwise, Indian or non Indian) for whom caste does not matter, and who think within paradigms that have nothing to do with varna and jaati. Is Rupa trying to say that this is really not the case, that all PIO Hindus are saying what they say because of their caste background? Is she not introducing casteism etc. in the entire debate? Is she helping us solve the issues at hand in ANY MANNER whatsoever?

Vishal:
An example is myself, married to a brahmin, being a non-brahmin.But,
there are amy more millions for whom caste does matter. In the US telugu community, the major divide is caste: therefore we have TANA and ATA. Similar divisions can be found in Tamil and Kerala US communities.


Vishal states:
Who is claiming here that we should not borrow or use western Hermeneutic techniques of they are not relevant. My objection is to the use of irrelevant and non-applicable techniques

Vishal
Power asymmetry will answer your question.



  JakeQDoe posted 4 yrs ago

The undue importance that Indian society has put on "Convent Education" also feeds to the "Ethnic Shame". For that reason my point about "St. Whatever" schools is relevant. As a recepient of such school education I can attest to that fact. Sankrant wrote a very good article on the English language class system.

But I get frustrated for not being able to do something about changing this.



  India Lover posted 4 yrs ago

South Asian Graduate Association (SAGA) of Columbia University invites for:

"Paths to Peace-The Kashmir Conflict"
Panel Discussion on the Conflict between India and Pakistan.

Date: Friday, April 23rd at 1:00-3.00 P.M. [Reception to Follow]
Venue: Kellogg Centre, 15th Floor
School of International and Public Affairs (SIPA)
420 West 118th Street New York, NY 10027

Introduction:
Professor Richard Betts
Leo A. Shifrin Professor of War and Peace Studies
Director, Saltzman Institute of War and Peace

Panelists:
Ambassador Frank Wisner
Former U.S. Ambassador to India
Vice-Chairman A.I.G. International.

Mr.Gautam Adhikari
Fellow, The American Enterprise Institute
Senior Editor, The Times of India

Professor Ainslee Embree
Professor Emeritus
School of International and Public Affairs, Columbia University.

Mr.Hussain Haqqani
Former Ambassador of Pakistan to Sri-lanka
Fellow, Carnegie Endowment of Peace
Adjunct Professor S.A.I.S, John Hopkins University

Mr.Nauman Naqvi
Doctoral Candidate, Department of Anthropology, Columbia University
Producer BBC London (Urdu Services)
Editor: Anthology, Rethinking Security, Rethinking Development.

Co-Sponsored by The Southern Asian Institute ,The Saltzman Institute of
War and Peace Studies, and SIPA Conflict Resolution Working Group.



  Vishal Agarwal posted 4 yrs ago

Hamir says -

QUOTE
"Dalit" might indeed be a neologism (on the time-scales of the Indian tradition), but that does not make it any less real in the current Indian context. Are you saying that Gandhiji and Babasaheb Ambedkar were fighting for something that has no presence in Indian culture, traditional or otherwise?
UNQUOTE

VA: Hamir has completely misunderstood my argument because he lost track of the context in which it was made. And what was the context? Doniger wrote an entry on Hindu dharma for Encarta which was derogatory to our faith. Paul Courtright wrote an obscene book on our deity. Some Hindus objected to it and a controversy was generated. Shankar Vedantam wrote a newspaper article on the whole thing in a very slanted manner in which Doniger and Courtright were presented as universal, objective scholars and the opposite party was presented as a fundamentalist, sectarian group with ulterior motives, or inferior intellect. This lead a discussion on RISA-L, in which Rupa surprisingly brought in extraneous issues such as Dalitism and so on. Her implication was that the objectors such as Sankrant Sanu and RM were merely representing Upper Caste Hindu ('Brahminist'), Hindu Nationalist and Male (chauvinist?) perspectives on the works of Doniger and Courtright. In short, Rupa put Vedantam's suggestions in a more crude and an even more slanted manner, in the process caricaturing people of Indian origins, and indulging in gross reductionisms and stereotyping.
The pertinent question here is - if Sanu's and RM's take on the issue is male chauvinist-upper caste Hindu nationalist, then what would be a 'feminist', 'Dalit' take on the books of Doniger and Courtright? This is a question which Rupa will not answer.
It is clear then that Rupa and you perhaps suffer from some kind of Hinduphobia which causes a knee-jerk reaction in you whenever PIO (especially if they are Hindu) even make legitimate objections to what is poor scholarship on our heritage (whether this heritage is considered monolithic or variegated is irrelevant). This labelling and categorization by Rupa et al is nothing short of negative stereotyping and caricaturing with the effect of suppressing the freedom of speech of objectors - it is a sort of 'kill the messenger' attitude.
I would like to ask what is so specifically male- uppercaste Hindu or Nationalist in Sanu's RM's or even my objections? Can't these all be considered in their own right?
There are millions of Hindus (whether upper caste origin or otherwise, Indian or non Indian) for whom caste does not matter, and who think within paradigms that have nothing to do with varna and jaati. Is Rupa trying to say that this is really not the case, that all PIO Hindus are saying what they say because of their caste background? Aren't her generalizations about NRI's, whom she refers to contemptuously (not that she is alone - another example of such a person is Dr Madhav Deshpande of UMichigan), as something less than equals, as something who are not capable of objective students/scholars, as something who cannot be agents of knowledge (but just as subjects for study). In caricaturing thus, is Rupa not exhibiting her own internalization of prejudices which racists possess? Is she not promiting these prejudices by her misplaced characterizations?
Is she not introducing casteism etc. in the entire debate? Is she helping us solve the issues at hand in ANY MANNER whatsoever?

Then Hamir argues -
QUOTE:
The notion of a "traditional" untainted Indian culture may seem nice, but I feel it remains a flight of the imagination.
UNQUOTE
VA- A country of the size of India will have a diverse range of opinion, lifestyles and so on. Yet, those who have internalized the excessive analytical (and insufficiently harmonious, eclectic ways of seeing) techniques will not discern the organic linkages between these various Indian ways, which do make up India as a distinct cultural unit apart from other cultural units. You have misunderstood my statement to mean that I consider traditional Indian culture to be untainted. I never claimed anything of this sort and people who know me will tell you that I freak out whenever I encounter casteism. With the growth of communication and transportation facilities, parallel with the trend of globalization, the organic linkages between various elements of India's culture (or cultures if you prefer) will only strenghten. This is something inevitable and one need not see some nefarious design here.

Hamir again says -
QUOTE -
Both Gandhiji and Ambedkar were heavily influenced by aspects of the West, often in mutually non-overlapping ways, while being grounded in the reality of India and Hinduism: point being that there is nothing inherently wrong or intrinsically non-fitting or mutually exclusive in getting inspired by "Western" phenomena and using them for the Indian situation.
UNQUOTE

VA: Who is claiming here that we should not borrow or use western Hermeneutic techniques of they are not relevant. My objection is to the use of irrelevant and non-applicable techniques - a classic case being the unnecessary induction of gender, caste, nationalism and other identities by Rupa into the entire debate which is a clear cut case of shoddy scholarship, mistranslations, misrepresentations, slander and abuse. What is so difficult to see here? It is Rupa's vision that is tunnelled, and _that_ is why she pigeon holes every one else. Mahatma Gandhi and Dr Ambedkar definitely were influenced by western thought, but at least the former did not go about throwing labels, and abusing others as Rupa is doing. He preferred to use dignified terms such as Harijans for 'Dalits' . The present day 'Dalitists' are a shame on Dr Ambedkar, and other then instilling a sense of victimhood into the minds of underprivileged Indians, and creating dissensions (or enhancing them), they are not doing much positive work. In any case, this discussion is extraneous to the topic at hand and I do not wish to belabor this point here.

Hamir says-
QUOTE -
" Though by no means in the same league, recently the scholar Kancha Ilaiah has made some severe criticisms of the Hindu tradition from what he calls a Dalit-bahujan perspective. So it seems there is several genuine strands of thought, from within India, that are both influenced by the West, and critical of the "traditional" Indian culture.
UNQUOTE

VA: I do not consider Illaiah a scholar. It is only anti-scholars, or anti-Hindu scholars who consider his work scholarly, and worth teaching EVEN IN ELEMENTARY CLASSES ON HINDUISM! Illaiah revels in propagating colonial missionary lies such as the Aryan Dravidian divide, racist interpretations of Indian past and so on. The subjugation of certain groups pf people in India is such a resounding reality that we do not need lies from Illaiah to make them evident. His recent book on bull and cow is total bull, and the only reason he wins accolades is that professional Hindu haters and scholars find his work useful to caricature and stereotype Hinduism. I only wish that he written some genuine scholarship to highlight the plight of poor and subjugated Indians rather than dishing out trash day in an out, and promote pure hatred (he clearly says that he hates Hinduism). Now I also have a perspective on Illaiah, but will my perspective be given the same weightage as Illaiah's? In any case, how revelevant is Illaiah to the controversy surroung Laine, Doniger and Courtright??

Hamir then pontificates-
QUOTE
"While it is true that there are the champagne activists and brown sahibs, this does not take away from the issues they purport to espouse. It is a welcome move to challenge the dominant paradigms through which certain issues are conceptualized in institutions of power, it would be a mistake to deny the existence of the issues themselves or blame the existence of the issue on the corruption of a pure now-defunct tradition."
UNQUOTE

VA: Can't you see that Rajiv Malhotra and Sanu are doing PRECISELY THAT? Then why do they deserve being caricatured by Rupa et al?? Perhaps your sermons are best directed to sepoys like her.



  Karna posted 4 yrs ago

Interesting comment: "Faced with an adversary having an opposing view, the society there seems to first move in the direction of how to vanquish the adversary (and his ideas), rather than trying to understand the adversary's point of view leading to collective introspection."

Very insightful. I think Western -- especially US -- paradigms of thought and response are highly influenced by the Evangelistic nature of their religion. Only one religion should be left standing. Which is why the West is so competitive. Which is why the West excels at sales and marketing. Since Hindus don't believe in religious competition, they generally -- as a society -- do not market and sell well.

Regarding ethnic shame -- this has been in Indian and Hindu society for a long time. Probably since Mughal times but certainly institutionalized during the British era. The only way to advance during British times was to reject one's Indianness and become a Brown Sahib -- pipe, chhota peg etc. Convent schools continued the tradition. I remember growing up feeling ashamed to speak a language other than English. And the school very subtly made Christianity appear civilized, modern, and compassionate, while Hinduism was made to appear (not overtly, but subtly), backward. So I tried to distance myself from my Hindu identity. It was worse. Livinng as a south Indian in North India, I was made to feel ashamed of my South Indianness.

My siblings dealt with this problem by trying to erase both their Hindu and South Indian identities. My brother changed his name. Both my siblings married non-Hindus. My nephews and nieces insist only on speaking only in English at all times and feign an ignorance of Indian languages (of which they feel proud).

It's only after living in the US and especially after engaging in discussions in fora such as t